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RIA Novosti

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Russia loses $600 mln Indian attack helicopter tender

15:20 25/10/2011
NEW DELHI, October 25 (RIA Novosti)
Tags: Mi-28N Night Hunter, India, Russia

Russian Mi-28N Night Hunter has lost a tender on the delivery of 22 attack helicopters to the Indian military in strong competition with the American AH-64D Apache, an Indian Defense Ministry source said on Tuesday.

“We decided not to choose the Mi-28 for technical reasons. Our experts believe that the Mi-28N did not meet the requirements of the tender on 20 positions, while the Apache showed better performance,” the source said.

The future contract, worth at least $600 million, envisions an optional delivery of additional 22 helicopters.

Russia is still taking part in two other Indian helicopter tenders: on the delivery of 12 heavy transport helicopters and 197 light general-purpose helicopters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The first tender includes the Russian Mi-26T2 and the American CH-47F Chinook helicopters, while the second involves the Russian Ka-226T and the AS550 Fennec helicopter, developed by Eurocopter.

Meanwhile, Russia continues the deliveries of Mi-17-B5 transport helicopters to India under a 2008 contract for the supply of 80 helicopters worth $1.4 billion.

The Indian military helicopter market, with its potential demand for 700 helicopters in the next decade, fuels fierce competition among foreign manufacturers.

 

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RIA NovostiMi-28N Night HunterRussia loses $600 mln Indian attack helicopter tender

15:20 25/10/2011 Russian Mi-28N Night Hunter has lost a tender on the delivery of 22 attack helicopters to the Indian military in strong competition with the American AH-64D Apache, an Indian Defense Ministry source said on Tuesday.>>

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  • shanksinhaSetback for Indo-Russian engagement
    19:55, 25/10/2011
    This tender was for replacing the Mi-35 in Indian service and the Mi-28 being a lter design was a good choice. However, there are bigger dynamics in play here. In exchange for the civilian nuclear deal, Indian Govt. has promised a number of defence deals to the Americans, namely the P-8I deal, C-130J deal and C-17 deal. The decisions on all these deals are not based on merit at all. I bet the heavy helo deal will also go the Chinook as per the same understanding.
    Consequently Russia will lose a strong foothold in Indian armament market in the coming years. The lack of timely aftersales support by Rosboron export is also a factor in these decisions. However, there is a concerted smear campaign mounted by the English press in India against Russian equipment, mostly financed by US arms companies. Russian vendors need to counter this with their own lobbying. Deep engagement between Russia and India is in favor of both the countries.
  • living069dear oh dear
    08:24, 27/10/2011
    i keep saying that america wants to choke russia, seems i'm right again, in reality the indians can learn to repair their stuff, so america is blackmailing india, also india thinks if it sides with the "almighty" america then it will be safe in the next world war, think again, america will be looking after itself only, they now have to many enemies to worry about.
    • jimnophobiaRe: dear oh dear
      22:20, 28/10/2011
      You are wrong my friend... Indians have no such illusions America would help us... the world (esp. Indians) knows that the America stands for their own interest...

      The problem with Indian and Russian relations is that it is primarily if not solely based on defense relations... If this relation has to grow we must seen out other avenues of cooperation like cultural, business, education.

      Else, don't blame us for selecting a better helicopter with better after-sales support especially when Russians keep ramping up prices for the Aircraft carrier we bought some aeons ago.
    • thudridgeBe honest
      09:04, 28/10/2011
      American defense company's play hardball but the killer for Russia is S-U-P-P-O-R-T. American contractors do their job extremely well and do not require bribes also US equipment does not have anywhere near the reliability problems of Russian gear. Russian arms makers were simply starved for too long and thus are having to catch up from well back in the field. Continue to pursue partnerships with German industrial leaders and again become a world beater in energy supply and technology.
    • haavarlaNot mature enough
      09:37, 28/10/2011
      The Mi-28N must first reach the same level of battle readyness and systems maturity. The network, comunication and battle space awareness of the AH-64 are superior to the Mi-28N, so it does not matter if the Mi-28N has better armour and power..
    • p2o2rianAmbush at Najaf
      16:49, 28/10/2011
      Superior, reliable, mature, etc.

      Find in Internet "Ambush at Najaf".
      E.g. here:

      http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-9802.html

      Quote - "A fusillade of small-arms and anti-aircraft fire downed one Apache and its two-man crew. The other helicopters in the raid retreated before the mission could be accomplished."

      Simple fellaheen/peasants with AK-47 stopped mighty attack of the so much worshiped AH-64!

      Regards
    • jimnophobiaIndian-Russian relation decline
      22:29, 28/10/2011
      It's sad to see declining relations between India and Russia... I feel that the momentum set forth by our leaders in the past has not carried forward in the present generation...

      The reason is that historically India and Russia only sought relations for defense cooperation. We must expand to other sectors like education, business and cultural exchanges to grow this relation. Losing out one helicopter is not a big deal to our time-tested friendship...
    • arsanlupin"All we want are the facts, ma'am" - Sgt. Joe Friday, 1951
      22:32, 28/10/2011
      Interesting points of view. Not all are factual by any means, but certainly interesting …

      While a few of the errors and misconceptions are obviously a bias (bigotry? hatred? fear?) against The West in general and the United States in particular, most are technical issues.

      One misquoted an article about a battle in Iraq, where the words “anti-aircraft fire” were minimized or ignored. An AK-47 is one thing; a 12.7 mm heavy machine gun or 20-30 mm cannon specifically mounted in an anti-aircraft mount is quite another. No helicopter – American or European or Russian – can withstand that kind of fire. So that “argument” is irrelevant. The one Apache was lost due to poor mission planning, with a predictable flight path and a breach of operational security. That isn’t the Apache’s fault – it’s the people’s fault.

      Another problem is errors and omissions in the two helicopters’ specifications. The AH-64’s correct stats are: 265 kph cruise speed, combat radius 480 km, maximum takeoff weight 10,433 kg, service ceiling 6400 m, up to 16 AGM-114 guided missiles, an internal cannon with multiple firing rates, and 2000 shp turbo shaft engines. The Mi-28N’s correct stats are as follows: service ceiling 5700 m, combat radius 200 km, and internal cannon with only 250 rounds of ammunition.

      The anti-tank missiles used are also very different in some ways: the Ataka-V uses a SACLOS radio guidance that requires the pilot to remain stationary while the gunner continuously points a sighting device at the target, guiding the missile via a radio link that can easily be defeated. The AGM-134 Hellfire has laser guidance almost impossible to detect or jam, plus a millimeter radar seeker that is “fire and forget”, enabling the helicopter to engage the targets, fire upon them, and already be out of range when the ordnance strikes. The Hellfire is also considerably more accurate. In fact, accuracy and reliability of Russian (and Soviet before it) weaponry has always lagged behind that of The West, which was already correctly mentioned in these comments. The concepts of “quality control” and “customer service” in Russia are novel concepts that are yet to become the norm.

      I know: some people will make up foolish statements, thinking if they repeat it enough times loudly enough, then it MUST be true, but I’m sure most of us are adult enough to know better. That’s even gone out of fashion in the former Soviet Union … mostly. Bottom line: only if one eliminates the prejudice and inaccuracies and conspiracy theories and hate-mongering, and concentrates solely on the facts, can one come to a reasonable conclusion. India chose the technically superior product from a supplier who can more reliably provide service and support – period.
    • p2o2rianWe All Want Facts
      03:21, 29/10/2011
      > SACLOS radio guidance that requires the pilot to remain stationary..."

      > I’m sure most of us are adult enough to know better

      That's right. See the website:
      http://www.airwar.ru/weapon/aat/ataka.html

      use translate.google.com if necessary.

      One short excerpt (translated):

      "During the flight, the operator keeps the multi-function display a label fixed to the combined and, if necessary, align the position of the line of sight through the manipulation of control levers until the destruction of the target. ****During this process, the helicopter can maneuver with yaw angle to 110 degrees and roll to 30 degrees.****" (*** - my emphasis).

      So much for "the facts". :-)

      AH-64Ds are awesome good and Mi-28Ns need to be improved in closest future but it doesn't mean they are that "bad". ;-)

      Regards
      • arsanlupinThank you
        04:31, 29/10/2011
        Thank you fort pointing out my inaccuracy. I was trying to say that the Ataka-V requires the Mi-28N to keep the target sighted until impact, which leaves it far more vulnerable than if the missile were a fire-and-forget. My apologies for the error in detail; even now not all details of Russian military hardware are so easily obtainable in The West. Thank you also for the new source of information - I have added it to my list of favorites.

        Also, please note that, while I noted some shortcomings of the Mi-28N relative to the AH-64D, I never denigrated the MI-28N in any way. I simply tried to let the numbers speak for themselves, and while the AH-64D is superior, the MI-28N definitely deserved to be a serious contender because a lot of its specifications were close, and a few were better. Overall, both birds are quite formidable, and I wouldn't want either to be annoyed with me. It's just that the AH-64D has a decisive edge.

        The observation "I’m sure most of us are adult enough to know better" was referring to the "anti-imperialist" political opinions of another comment entirely. Obviously, I disagree with them most strongly, and I welcome the improvements in Russo-American relations that continues until this day. In fact, I disagree with NATO and agree with Russia, regarding the European missile defense shield. But that's another topic.

        Your post, while it had some points I wasn't in agreement with, was at least trying to address facts and technical issues, which was really the point of the original article.

        Again, my thanks.
      • NovycherSay no to America
        08:04, 29/10/2011
        Why we Indians are playing double game. Not much familiar with technical reasons. But all these years, Only Russia helped us and US used and using us. Fault is with our congress government. For God sake, this US deal should. No true Indians will like and Support this deal. Long live India and Long live Russia.
      • AristaeusTechnical advantage... rest are politics.
        07:16, 01/11/2011
        Mi-28A/N is more protected then the apache, Mi-28A/N got ejection seats, and it has a new design of all plastic rotor blades, which can sustain hits from 30mm shells it also can carry 3 more troops or supplies, it also features shielding of vital components by less important ones;
        main and tail rotors blades are made of super-strong composites free from secondary destruction effect;
        duplicated hydraulic and control systems;
        engine separation;
        armoured pilot's cockpit is fitted with ceramic armoured fuselage, bullet-proof windshields and armoured partition between crew members;
        self-sealing polyurethane foam-filled fuel tanks;
        unique fuel system operating in depression conditions preventing explosion, ignition and leakage.

        Mi-28A/N Havoc Attack Helicopter can fly at a maximum speed of 324 km/hour , can fly rearwards and sideways at speeds up to 100km/h, and is able to hover turn at 45� per second.
        Range of flight at normal take-off weight 460 km
        Ferry range with drop tanks attached 1,105 km
        compared to the longbow apache
        400 kilometres on internal fuel
        1,900 kilometres on internal and external fuel
        260 kilometres per hour
        it also carries more AA missiles (8 �Igla-V�) compared to 4 of the apache, the mi-28 uses Ataka and also can use Vikhr-m missiles which are comparable to the hellfire with their 10,000m+ range and penetration, and they are also can be used as AA missiles.

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